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	<title>Comments on: Have the Lib Dems lost the plot in Norwich?</title>
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	<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/</link>
	<description>“ferocity with a purpose”</description>
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		<title>By: Oranjepan</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215370</link>
		<dc:creator>Oranjepan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:23:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215370</guid>
		<description>Ethics and morality is essential because it is the study of how and why things work, not whether or not they are nice.

Being negative about an opponent just doesn&#039;t work because it plays to the prejudices of the audience. Even if it seems to work for a while it only lowers the standard of debate. Presenting facts honestly is another thing entirely - if the facts cast a candidate in a bad light then don&#039;t blame the messenger.

Green Party tactics? Can&#039;t say much about them as I&#039;ve never recieved a leaflet from them and the only time I&#039;ve seen any of their candidates was when I sought them out. Just my opinion, but I wasn&#039;t impressed - they seem to be nothing more than a protest vote. 

Much as I wish LibDems to gain maximum votes I&#039;d rather win with the endorsement of a positive mandate from people who know what they are supporting, so I&#039;m actually quite positive about the LibDem transition to a party which can hold power while jettisoning the permanent discontents and perpetual oppositionists. 

We&#039;ll never gain widespread respect by pandering to the most radical sections of society, so, counterintuitively, I think our current form at parliamentary by-elections is indicative of boost at the next general election. 

I also regularly pick up indications that Clegg is considered more seriously as a potential PM by non-members than any other leader we&#039;ve had in my lifetime, so I can&#039;t help but be optimistic for our medium-to-long term future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethics and morality is essential because it is the study of how and why things work, not whether or not they are nice.</p>
<p>Being negative about an opponent just doesn&#8217;t work because it plays to the prejudices of the audience. Even if it seems to work for a while it only lowers the standard of debate. Presenting facts honestly is another thing entirely &#8211; if the facts cast a candidate in a bad light then don&#8217;t blame the messenger.</p>
<p>Green Party tactics? Can&#8217;t say much about them as I&#8217;ve never recieved a leaflet from them and the only time I&#8217;ve seen any of their candidates was when I sought them out. Just my opinion, but I wasn&#8217;t impressed &#8211; they seem to be nothing more than a protest vote. </p>
<p>Much as I wish LibDems to gain maximum votes I&#8217;d rather win with the endorsement of a positive mandate from people who know what they are supporting, so I&#8217;m actually quite positive about the LibDem transition to a party which can hold power while jettisoning the permanent discontents and perpetual oppositionists. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll never gain widespread respect by pandering to the most radical sections of society, so, counterintuitively, I think our current form at parliamentary by-elections is indicative of boost at the next general election. </p>
<p>I also regularly pick up indications that Clegg is considered more seriously as a potential PM by non-members than any other leader we&#8217;ve had in my lifetime, so I can&#8217;t help but be optimistic for our medium-to-long term future.</p>
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		<title>By: crewegwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215368</link>
		<dc:creator>crewegwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215368</guid>
		<description>&quot;I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet&quot;

I&#039;ll send you one of mine if you like?

The Labour Party spent years accusing us of &quot;telling lies&quot; but never quite got around to saying how exactly ....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll send you one of mine if you like?</p>
<p>The Labour Party spent years accusing us of &#8220;telling lies&#8221; but never quite got around to saying how exactly &#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215351</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215351</guid>
		<description>&quot;I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet&quot;

Since that is such transparent, mendacious, self-serving bullshit, why should anyone take you seriously?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet&#8221;</p>
<p>Since that is such transparent, mendacious, self-serving bullshit, why should anyone take you seriously?</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215350</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215350</guid>
		<description>Some Conservatives argue that my blog was nothing but public criticism of my own party. You would know that if you had read it.

You are being far too coy with your attempt to sweep the infamous Lib Dem bar chart under the carpet. Slightly out of proportion? Those bar charts are carefully constructed to present a misleading visual representation of Lib Dem strength and electoral prospects. The fact is it is a deception. No party should do it, but the Lib Dems use it like a crutch when trying to make their prospects better than the reality.

In the years I spent campaigning I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet. Perhaps that does not satisfy the threshold of evidence you seek, but it is nonetheless a fact. There remains something both curious and distasteful about the Lib Dems&#039; campaigning methods, even after all these years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some Conservatives argue that my blog was nothing but public criticism of my own party. You would know that if you had read it.</p>
<p>You are being far too coy with your attempt to sweep the infamous Lib Dem bar chart under the carpet. Slightly out of proportion? Those bar charts are carefully constructed to present a misleading visual representation of Lib Dem strength and electoral prospects. The fact is it is a deception. No party should do it, but the Lib Dems use it like a crutch when trying to make their prospects better than the reality.</p>
<p>In the years I spent campaigning I have never, not once, seen an honest Lib Dem leaflet. Perhaps that does not satisfy the threshold of evidence you seek, but it is nonetheless a fact. There remains something both curious and distasteful about the Lib Dems&#8217; campaigning methods, even after all these years.</p>
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		<title>By: crewegwyn</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215345</link>
		<dc:creator>crewegwyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215345</guid>
		<description>I have used bar-charts on various occasions over the years (I am a Lib Dem).

They have always been &quot;in proportion and to scale&quot;.  So they should be ...

Some Lib Dems distort the scale ... so do candidates/agents from other parties.

They shouldn&#039;t.

But I have yet to see evidence that any one party is more/less susceptible to such behaviour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have used bar-charts on various occasions over the years (I am a Lib Dem).</p>
<p>They have always been &#8220;in proportion and to scale&#8221;.  So they should be &#8230;</p>
<p>Some Lib Dems distort the scale &#8230; so do candidates/agents from other parties.</p>
<p>They shouldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>But I have yet to see evidence that any one party is more/less susceptible to such behaviour.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215339</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215339</guid>
		<description>Tony,

I&#039;ve worked in most by-elections over the years, was an agent in 2001, a campaign manager in 2005 and worked as a campaign organiser in 2000-2002 and I can honestly say that in my experience the Lib Dems&#039; conduct has been better than the other parties. Where do I start? Racist Labour leaflets about our Asian candidates?  Suggestions of ficticious rape convictions by the Tories?  Labour&#039;s notorious &quot;the Lib Dems love Ian Huntley&quot; leaflet from 2005?  The travesty that was Labour&#039;s campaign in 2004&#039;s Hodge Hill by-election, or the Tories&#039; 2007 Ealing Southall campaign?

But then I would say that, wouldn&#039;t I?  We are all guilty of seeing fault in other parties that we fail to see in our own.  I, at least, can cite numerous incidents of where I&#039;ve publically criticised my own party in the past; can you?

As for bar charts, why does it matter if they are slightly out of proportion? People either look at them for a split second or (if they are party activists) pore over them.  Some are more dubious than others but the dubious ones tend to wind up on the internet within minutes these days; uncannily, for some reason our opponents don&#039;t take the time to scan in the dozens of accurate bar charts.

The story that the Lib Dems play &quot;dirtier&quot; than the other parties has all the characteristics of an urban myth.  It is fuelled by anecdote, a biased media and the &quot;irony&quot; of the &quot;nice&quot; party being &quot;nasty.&quot;  There simply isn&#039;t any objective evidence to suggest they are worse than the other parties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve worked in most by-elections over the years, was an agent in 2001, a campaign manager in 2005 and worked as a campaign organiser in 2000-2002 and I can honestly say that in my experience the Lib Dems&#8217; conduct has been better than the other parties. Where do I start? Racist Labour leaflets about our Asian candidates?  Suggestions of ficticious rape convictions by the Tories?  Labour&#8217;s notorious &#8220;the Lib Dems love Ian Huntley&#8221; leaflet from 2005?  The travesty that was Labour&#8217;s campaign in 2004&#8217;s Hodge Hill by-election, or the Tories&#8217; 2007 Ealing Southall campaign?</p>
<p>But then I would say that, wouldn&#8217;t I?  We are all guilty of seeing fault in other parties that we fail to see in our own.  I, at least, can cite numerous incidents of where I&#8217;ve publically criticised my own party in the past; can you?</p>
<p>As for bar charts, why does it matter if they are slightly out of proportion? People either look at them for a split second or (if they are party activists) pore over them.  Some are more dubious than others but the dubious ones tend to wind up on the internet within minutes these days; uncannily, for some reason our opponents don&#8217;t take the time to scan in the dozens of accurate bar charts.</p>
<p>The story that the Lib Dems play &#8220;dirtier&#8221; than the other parties has all the characteristics of an urban myth.  It is fuelled by anecdote, a biased media and the &#8220;irony&#8221; of the &#8220;nice&#8221; party being &#8220;nasty.&#8221;  There simply isn&#8217;t any objective evidence to suggest they are worse than the other parties.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215335</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:04:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215335</guid>
		<description>James, the Lib Dems have consistently engaged in this sort of nastiness. I am struggling to understand why this is only now becoming an issue for you. As for the bar charts, no one would have a problem with them if they were actually in proportion and to scale, with the text justified with the same spacing for all bars. But then, that would reveal how poor Lib Dem performance is and your chaps would not want to publish that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James, the Lib Dems have consistently engaged in this sort of nastiness. I am struggling to understand why this is only now becoming an issue for you. As for the bar charts, no one would have a problem with them if they were actually in proportion and to scale, with the text justified with the same spacing for all bars. But then, that would reveal how poor Lib Dem performance is and your chaps would not want to publish that.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215320</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215320</guid>
		<description>The whole leaflet, in context, can be found on the Straight Choice website I linked to.  And aside from one snarky tweet, I haven&#039;t read any news about this leaflet or heard any &quot;hearsay&quot; - I simply read the leaflet and drew my own conclusions.

Why should I waste the train fare to fight a campaign that the local team themselves aren&#039;t fighting to win?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The whole leaflet, in context, can be found on the Straight Choice website I linked to.  And aside from one snarky tweet, I haven&#8217;t read any news about this leaflet or heard any &#8220;hearsay&#8221; &#8211; I simply read the leaflet and drew my own conclusions.</p>
<p>Why should I waste the train fare to fight a campaign that the local team themselves aren&#8217;t fighting to win?</p>
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		<title>By: Nich Starling - Norfolk Blogger</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2009/07/12/have-the-lib-dems-lost-the-plot-in-norwich/comment-page-1/#comment-215313</link>
		<dc:creator>Nich Starling - Norfolk Blogger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/?p=2566#comment-215313</guid>
		<description>The attacks on the Greens have been one small part of an 8 page leaflet. One single article. If you read my blog and looked at the leaflet you would know that. Instead you appear to have been reading the biased news and working on hearsay.

Why not come to Norwich and find out the truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The attacks on the Greens have been one small part of an 8 page leaflet. One single article. If you read my blog and looked at the leaflet you would know that. Instead you appear to have been reading the biased news and working on hearsay.</p>
<p>Why not come to Norwich and find out the truth.</p>
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