Comments on: It isn’t a cake, and it doesn’t taste like tea http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/ crass, boorish and more a bruiser than blogger Sun, 20 Jul 2008 02:46:06 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.1 By: whelan http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-173482 whelan Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:54:56 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-173482 Sorry I am late to comment on this, but it is not the EU's fault. I enjoy your articles James, but this is not the best informed of judgments regarding our European legal elite. In addition, I have no doubt that ECJ officials are happily munching away on their shortbread given that these fine biscuits were involved in an EU/US trade dispute. I'm also pretty sure the Daily Mash was spot on in its coverage: http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/everything-we-sell-is-a-cake%2c-claims-m%26s-20080410863/ Sorry I am late to comment on this, but it is not the EU’s fault. I enjoy your articles James, but this is not the best informed of judgments regarding our European legal elite. In addition, I have no doubt that ECJ officials are happily munching away on their shortbread given that these fine biscuits were involved in an EU/US trade dispute.

I’m also pretty sure the Daily Mash was spot on in its coverage:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/business/everything-we-sell-is-a-cake%2c-claims-m%26s-20080410863/

]]> By: Liz W http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172768 Liz W Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:20:48 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172768 James, I knew that you were not being entirely serious. My points were, firstly, that your joke seemed to be based on a misunderstanding of what the ECJ had decided, and secondly, that this is not in fact a trivial issue that deserves to be mocked as your post appeared to do, but one in which the ECHR has upheld two of the fundamental principles of a liberal democracy - on which both the Conservative and the Labour Governments since 1994 appear to have been hazy. James, I knew that you were not being entirely serious. My points were, firstly, that your joke seemed to be based on a misunderstanding of what the ECJ had decided, and secondly, that this is not in fact a trivial issue that deserves to be mocked as your post appeared to do, but one in which the ECHR has upheld two of the fundamental principles of a liberal democracy - on which both the Conservative and the Labour Governments since 1994 appear to have been hazy.

]]> By: Simon Jerram http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172661 Simon Jerram Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:38:44 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172661 Actually plain biscuits are food, and zero rated for vat. It's only when you add chocolate and they become luxury items and vatable at normal rate. Adding chocolate to cakes doesn't make them luxury items. For some reason- hence the jaffa cake loophole. Actually plain biscuits are food, and zero rated for vat. It’s only when you add chocolate and they become luxury items and vatable at normal rate.

Adding chocolate to cakes doesn’t make them luxury items. For some reason- hence the jaffa cake loophole.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172631 James Graham Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:36:44 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172631 Oglethorpe - I'm not sure it is strictly accurate to describe Will as a cake or a bread. He is more of a sugary confection and almost certainly not VAT exempt. Oglethorpe - I’m not sure it is strictly accurate to describe Will as a cake or a bread. He is more of a sugary confection and almost certainly not VAT exempt.

]]> By: Oglethorpe http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172630 Oglethorpe Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:33:15 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172630 I made the same assumption as Will (which would either be a cake or a bread) and rather than realising we're talking the Tunnocks kind. If you remove the fluffy marshmallow from a Tunnocks teacake you would be left with a crunch biscuit base covered in chocolate - much like a Twix, Club, etc. Does the marshmallow addition really transform it magically into a cake? It doesn't seem right to me. That said, this mess of a compromise on what is and is not VAT taxable at least ensures that foods used everyday are affordable. Like Edis, I would not want to see staple food taxed. I made the same assumption as Will (which would either be a cake or a bread) and rather than realising we’re talking the Tunnocks kind.

If you remove the fluffy marshmallow from a Tunnocks teacake you would be left with a crunch biscuit base covered in chocolate - much like a Twix, Club, etc. Does the marshmallow addition really transform it magically into a cake? It doesn’t seem right to me.

That said, this mess of a compromise on what is and is not VAT taxable at least ensures that foods used everyday are affordable. Like Edis, I would not want to see staple food taxed.

]]> By: Edis http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172625 Edis Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:01:39 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172625 The problem (if it is a problem) is that the UK wants to exclude food from taxes such as VAT. As ever, when taxation policy comes up against the messy teacup of the real world (life always spills over the rims of every cup) this leads to entertaining anomalies. What is a food? Is confectionary food? And so on. The UK (not any Europeran body) decided that cakes are food (untaxed) but biscuits are confectionary (taxed). The legal definitions under UK (not originally European) law for cakes and biscuits are: If its is soft when fresh but goes hard when stale, it is a cake. If it is hard when fresh but goes soft when stale, it is a biscuit. (lets leave aside the wonderful question of bread...) As I understand it, what the European Court of Justice has said is that if such regulations are in place they must be applied consistently and fairly. Any objections to this? We could avoid the problem (as many European countries do) by taxing food. I dont want that. The problem (if it is a problem) is that the UK wants to exclude food from taxes such as VAT. As ever, when taxation policy comes up against the messy teacup of the real world (life always spills over the rims of every cup) this leads to entertaining anomalies. What is a food? Is confectionary food? And so on.

The UK (not any Europeran body) decided that cakes are food (untaxed) but biscuits are confectionary (taxed).

The legal definitions under UK (not originally European) law for cakes and biscuits are:

If its is soft when fresh but goes hard when stale, it is a cake.
If it is hard when fresh but goes soft when stale, it is a biscuit.

(lets leave aside the wonderful question of bread…)

As I understand it, what the European Court of Justice has said is that if such regulations are in place they must be applied consistently and fairly. Any objections to this?

We could avoid the problem (as many European countries do) by taxing food. I dont want that.

]]> By: Will http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172621 Will Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:40:48 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172621 I assumed by teacakes they meant the soft, doughy things with fruit in - how wrong I was. Of course the chocolate ones are more like a biscuit... But I agree with Ryan - why the difference? Isn't it just making work for someone somewhere? I assumed by teacakes they meant the soft, doughy things with fruit in - how wrong I was. Of course the chocolate ones are more like a biscuit…

But I agree with Ryan - why the difference? Isn’t it just making work for someone somewhere?

]]> By: Ryan Cullen http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172619 Ryan Cullen Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:20:38 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172619 I can't understand why we tax cake and biscuits any differently? Also as per the UK Tresuary response, shouldn't [b]we[/b] be getting the VAT back. Maybe free teabiscuits from M&S this weekend? I can’t understand why we tax cake and biscuits any differently?
Also as per the UK Tresuary response, shouldn’t [b]we[/b] be getting the VAT back. Maybe free teabiscuits from M&S this weekend?

]]> By: James Graham http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172612 James Graham Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:05:06 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172612 But - and I'm being quite serious here - there is no way you will ever convince me that a teacake is a proper cake. But - and I’m being quite serious here - there is no way you will ever convince me that a teacake is a proper cake.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172611 James Graham Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:04:28 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/04/11/it-isnt-a-cake-and-it-isnt-made-of-tea/#comment-172611 I suggest that civilisation is coming to an end on the basis of how a teacake is classified for tax purposes and that Common Purpose is behind it all and people assume I'm being strictly serious. What can you do? I suggest that civilisation is coming to an end on the basis of how a teacake is classified for tax purposes and that Common Purpose is behind it all and people assume I’m being strictly serious. What can you do?

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