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	<title>Comments on: Does Rowan Williams have any more idea of what he&#8217;s going on about than I do?</title>
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	<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/</link>
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		<title>By: thomaskust</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160649</link>
		<dc:creator>thomaskust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 17:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160649</guid>
		<description>It has been widely reported that according to a statement on his website his principal aim was &quot;to tease out some of the broader issues around the rights of religious groups within a secular state&quot; and that he did not initiate the idea but simply agreed when that proposition was put to him. 

Does this give the game away?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has been widely reported that according to a statement on his website his principal aim was &#8220;to tease out some of the broader issues around the rights of religious groups within a secular state&#8221; and that he did not initiate the idea but simply agreed when that proposition was put to him. </p>
<p>Does this give the game away?</p>
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		<title>By: thomaskust</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160634</link>
		<dc:creator>thomaskust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160634</guid>
		<description>In our round condemnation of the content of Dr Williams lecture it strikes me that there is more going on here than the vast swathe of the commentariat are grasping.

We could say that he is simply wrong, which would be to miss the point as we roundly agree that he is well intentioned, or we can point out that his good intentions have been so badly put across that it smacks of a naive political sensibility to have failed to recognise the furore that would inevitably be sparked by his comments.

I cannot convince myself that a man in his position, who used the full power of his office to promote the Westminster Hall lecture through the state licensed media corporation was acting of his sole volition. I do not believe any &#039;lone gunman&#039; theory that he contrived his argument in solitude in the private sanctuary of his palatial offices, then hand-picked and invited the thousand-or-so guests out of some sort of personal mission. At the very least he would have discussed his intentions with his inner circle of advisors and recieved some secretarial assistance in order to set this thing up.

No, the Archbish is responding to a political challenge of our society and contributing to the cultural and legal debate in a way prescribed by his role. The established Church of England has pressed the buttons of its own and its opposing constituency and acted consciously as a tool of state.

If a majority of the population disagrees with the content, manner or tone of the contribution then it highlights two significant facts, namely: 1)the politicisation of a nominally secular branch of the state 2)how out of touch the establishment is from social reality.

I think we must ask why he chose to play this card and why now. The machiavellian in me cannot escape the pretence that the levers of power are being manipulated in some way or form, so we must look at who is the puppetmaster in this shadow game - who has their hands on these levers of power?

In coincidental contrast, and by way of analogy, a similar furore has broken out among football fans over the floated idea by the FA to play some league matches abroad. Some top figures in the game have tentatively responded with a dead bat to the idea from Richard Scudamore that the idea was inevitable and desirable, while the longest tenured of all has criticised the lack of consultation involved. The fans have resoundingly condemned the proposal on a variety of grounds. (is this starting to have a familiar ring to it yet?) The result of which has been a decisive intervention from our PM, to widespread popular approval as a voice of reason, that the fans concerns should be taken into consideration.

I could ask what Gordon Brown is doing with his time to be so quick off the ball on what is in effect a side-issue to the main topics of the day, especially in comparison to the Williams controversy, but in a week when policy kite-flying has been all the rage, my suspicions have been roused to consider there is some sort of a trend here, which only a true master of the game would be able to disassociate his personal fortune from involvement in, in order to cash in on.

The proof of a trend will come to light in the more serious debate re: Shari&#039;a law if Brown responds in a similarly and sufficiently considered manner, at the appropriate moment to create a second wave of publicity positioning himself as the &#039;voice of reason&#039;. It is striking that these two areas correspond so closely to what we know of Gordon Brown&#039;s personality.

Whether either Rowan Williams or Richard Scudamore&#039;s ideas actually come to pass is irrelevant to the stir caused from which it is &quot;inevitable&quot; that a figure will rise. If it is that the initiator ultimately sees this benefit and thereby shows his leadership calibre, who should question how &quot;desirable&quot; this example of classical political machination is for all of the rest of us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In our round condemnation of the content of Dr Williams lecture it strikes me that there is more going on here than the vast swathe of the commentariat are grasping.</p>
<p>We could say that he is simply wrong, which would be to miss the point as we roundly agree that he is well intentioned, or we can point out that his good intentions have been so badly put across that it smacks of a naive political sensibility to have failed to recognise the furore that would inevitably be sparked by his comments.</p>
<p>I cannot convince myself that a man in his position, who used the full power of his office to promote the Westminster Hall lecture through the state licensed media corporation was acting of his sole volition. I do not believe any &#8216;lone gunman&#8217; theory that he contrived his argument in solitude in the private sanctuary of his palatial offices, then hand-picked and invited the thousand-or-so guests out of some sort of personal mission. At the very least he would have discussed his intentions with his inner circle of advisors and recieved some secretarial assistance in order to set this thing up.</p>
<p>No, the Archbish is responding to a political challenge of our society and contributing to the cultural and legal debate in a way prescribed by his role. The established Church of England has pressed the buttons of its own and its opposing constituency and acted consciously as a tool of state.</p>
<p>If a majority of the population disagrees with the content, manner or tone of the contribution then it highlights two significant facts, namely: 1)the politicisation of a nominally secular branch of the state 2)how out of touch the establishment is from social reality.</p>
<p>I think we must ask why he chose to play this card and why now. The machiavellian in me cannot escape the pretence that the levers of power are being manipulated in some way or form, so we must look at who is the puppetmaster in this shadow game &#8211; who has their hands on these levers of power?</p>
<p>In coincidental contrast, and by way of analogy, a similar furore has broken out among football fans over the floated idea by the FA to play some league matches abroad. Some top figures in the game have tentatively responded with a dead bat to the idea from Richard Scudamore that the idea was inevitable and desirable, while the longest tenured of all has criticised the lack of consultation involved. The fans have resoundingly condemned the proposal on a variety of grounds. (is this starting to have a familiar ring to it yet?) The result of which has been a decisive intervention from our PM, to widespread popular approval as a voice of reason, that the fans concerns should be taken into consideration.</p>
<p>I could ask what Gordon Brown is doing with his time to be so quick off the ball on what is in effect a side-issue to the main topics of the day, especially in comparison to the Williams controversy, but in a week when policy kite-flying has been all the rage, my suspicions have been roused to consider there is some sort of a trend here, which only a true master of the game would be able to disassociate his personal fortune from involvement in, in order to cash in on.</p>
<p>The proof of a trend will come to light in the more serious debate re: Shari&#8217;a law if Brown responds in a similarly and sufficiently considered manner, at the appropriate moment to create a second wave of publicity positioning himself as the &#8216;voice of reason&#8217;. It is striking that these two areas correspond so closely to what we know of Gordon Brown&#8217;s personality.</p>
<p>Whether either Rowan Williams or Richard Scudamore&#8217;s ideas actually come to pass is irrelevant to the stir caused from which it is &#8220;inevitable&#8221; that a figure will rise. If it is that the initiator ultimately sees this benefit and thereby shows his leadership calibre, who should question how &#8220;desirable&#8221; this example of classical political machination is for all of the rest of us.</p>
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		<title>By: Rowan Williams and &#8220;sharia courts&#8221;: reaction in the media and blogosphere &#171; pixelisation</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160442</link>
		<dc:creator>Rowan Williams and &#8220;sharia courts&#8221;: reaction in the media and blogosphere &#171; pixelisation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 07:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160442</guid>
		<description>[...] Quaequam Blog!, &#8220;Does Rowan Williams have any more idea of what heâ€™s going on about than I do?&#8221;: Sadly though it appears that he must have it both ways, appearing to not only argue for exceptionali... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Quaequam Blog!, &#8220;Does Rowan Williams have any more idea of what heâ€™s going on about than I do?&#8221;: Sadly though it appears that he must have it both ways, appearing to not only argue for exceptionali&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160085</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160085</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m trying to think of a response that can improve on &quot;tough titty&quot;.  I can&#039;t.

To quote Clegg:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Equality before the law is part of the glue that binds our society together. We cannot have a situation where there is one law for one person and different laws for another. There is a huge difference between respecting peopleâ€™s right to follow their own beliefs and allowing them to excuse themselves from the rule of law.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Both I and Nick Clegg support their right to equality before the law.  Neither I nor Nick Clegg have stated an opposition to the idea of opening up civil law, subject to human rights and certain practicalities.  What we both assert, and what Williams messily waffles about (one paragraph supporting, the next paragraph opposing) is the importance of the rule of law itself.

If respecting the rule of law is fundamentally contrary to the viability of sharia courts, then it is sharia courts that will have to be the losers.  I don&#039;t hold that extreme view, in fact I&#039;ve said the opposite, but clearly you feel it is as black and white as that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m trying to think of a response that can improve on &#8220;tough titty&#8221;.  I can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>To quote Clegg:</p>
<blockquote><p>Equality before the law is part of the glue that binds our society together. We cannot have a situation where there is one law for one person and different laws for another. There is a huge difference between respecting peopleâ€™s right to follow their own beliefs and allowing them to excuse themselves from the rule of law.</p></blockquote>
<p>Both I and Nick Clegg support their right to equality before the law.  Neither I nor Nick Clegg have stated an opposition to the idea of opening up civil law, subject to human rights and certain practicalities.  What we both assert, and what Williams messily waffles about (one paragraph supporting, the next paragraph opposing) is the importance of the rule of law itself.</p>
<p>If respecting the rule of law is fundamentally contrary to the viability of sharia courts, then it is sharia courts that will have to be the losers.  I don&#8217;t hold that extreme view, in fact I&#8217;ve said the opposite, but clearly you feel it is as black and white as that.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Young</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160080</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160080</guid>
		<description>Excuse me James, but this is not simply a matter of MPs who &quot;take the piss&quot;. MPs have special privileges which extend, we have just learned, not only to the right to put fish tanks on their expenses, to be deemed unprosecutable when in clear breach of rules they have themselves made, and to be supposedly guaranteed privacies which would not be extended to ordinary citizens.
Some of parliamentary privilege is obviously justifiable -  some questionable - and some objectionable or even unacceptable.
Similarly, just as you plead for some understanding of the position of the (we hope) majority of MPs who are decen t and honourable, might British Muslims not appreciate a little consideration and respect for their religion and special situation (which I do not share).
Islamic Sharia Councils are not some startling new demand. They have existed in Britain since the early 1980s and have been informally helpful in resolving disputes in family law and some spects of commercial and criminal law too.
Plenty of people have their own judicial or quasi-judical authorities. Everbody at present seems to be quoting Orthodox Jewry&#039;s Beth Din as closest parallel, but I think one might also refer to the Church of England&#039;s own ecclesiastical and consistory courts, to the General Medical Council, professional regulatory bodies such as the Adevrtising Standards Authority etc etc. Even this morning our sports authorities seemed to be claiming some special right to adjudicate who could or could not reprsent UK at the Olympics.
I live in Camden. About 16 per cent of our borough population is Muslim. We have one Muslim Lib Dem councillor, who has been working hard to try to prove to his co-religionists that they will get better understanding and support and a more sympathetic audience with the Lib Dems than with other political parties. Do you think Nick Clegg&#039;s response is going to be helpful to him? I don&#039;t. I know Clegg deeply disappointed me. I know also that he has deeply disappointed a lot of devout but far from extremist Muslims who looked for better from him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excuse me James, but this is not simply a matter of MPs who &#8220;take the piss&#8221;. MPs have special privileges which extend, we have just learned, not only to the right to put fish tanks on their expenses, to be deemed unprosecutable when in clear breach of rules they have themselves made, and to be supposedly guaranteed privacies which would not be extended to ordinary citizens.<br />
Some of parliamentary privilege is obviously justifiable &#8211;  some questionable &#8211; and some objectionable or even unacceptable.<br />
Similarly, just as you plead for some understanding of the position of the (we hope) majority of MPs who are decen t and honourable, might British Muslims not appreciate a little consideration and respect for their religion and special situation (which I do not share).<br />
Islamic Sharia Councils are not some startling new demand. They have existed in Britain since the early 1980s and have been informally helpful in resolving disputes in family law and some spects of commercial and criminal law too.<br />
Plenty of people have their own judicial or quasi-judical authorities. Everbody at present seems to be quoting Orthodox Jewry&#8217;s Beth Din as closest parallel, but I think one might also refer to the Church of England&#8217;s own ecclesiastical and consistory courts, to the General Medical Council, professional regulatory bodies such as the Adevrtising Standards Authority etc etc. Even this morning our sports authorities seemed to be claiming some special right to adjudicate who could or could not reprsent UK at the Olympics.<br />
I live in Camden. About 16 per cent of our borough population is Muslim. We have one Muslim Lib Dem councillor, who has been working hard to try to prove to his co-religionists that they will get better understanding and support and a more sympathetic audience with the Lib Dems than with other political parties. Do you think Nick Clegg&#8217;s response is going to be helpful to him? I don&#8217;t. I know Clegg deeply disappointed me. I know also that he has deeply disappointed a lot of devout but far from extremist Muslims who looked for better from him.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-160014</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-160014</guid>
		<description>Robin,

Nick Clegg&#039;s response was moderate and respectful and a whole lot less knee jerk than making some vague, ill informed attack on MPs just because of a few individuals who take the piss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>Nick Clegg&#8217;s response was moderate and respectful and a whole lot less knee jerk than making some vague, ill informed attack on MPs just because of a few individuals who take the piss.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Young</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-159985</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 09:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/#comment-159985</guid>
		<description>At least, James, you have taken trouble to think about it (and to study what the Archbishop said) before commenting - which is more than can said for Nick Clegg, whose rush to join the knee-jerk reactions condemning the Archbishop was deeply, deeply disappointing. Clegg was saying that equality before law is absolutely essential - which is a bit rich coming from an MP just at the moment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least, James, you have taken trouble to think about it (and to study what the Archbishop said) before commenting &#8211; which is more than can said for Nick Clegg, whose rush to join the knee-jerk reactions condemning the Archbishop was deeply, deeply disappointing. Clegg was saying that equality before law is absolutely essential &#8211; which is a bit rich coming from an MP just at the moment!</p>
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		<title>By: New poll: Is the Archbishop of Canterbury right? &#124; Liberal Democrat Voice</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2008/02/08/does-rowan-williams-have-any-more-idea-of-what-hes-going-on-about-than-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-159963</link>
		<dc:creator>New poll: Is the Archbishop of Canterbury right? &#124; Liberal Democrat Voice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 08:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] opaque views on this issue. Lib Dem blogger of the year James Graham has taken him to task here: Does Rowan Williams have any more idea of what he&#8217;s going on about than I do. Fellow bogger Brian Sloan meanwhile has written In Defence of Dr [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] opaque views on this issue. Lib Dem blogger of the year James Graham has taken him to task here: Does Rowan Williams have any more idea of what he&#8217;s going on about than I do. Fellow bogger Brian Sloan meanwhile has written In Defence of Dr [...]</p>
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