Comments on: Oxbridge Twittery and Freedom of Speech http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/ crass, boorish and more a bruiser than blogger Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:11:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Alix http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119980 Alix Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:24:20 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119980 Tom C, I think you make a fair point about the need to rebut arguments (even though it is clearly a lot more fun to have a go at the Union). The proof of the pudding however would lie in whether or not any smaller student groups ever invited such controversial figures to address them in surroundings more conducive to debate. It's bloody easy to rebut someone's arguments when there are three hundred of you and one of them and the tone of the occasion lends itself to barracking. Anyone who really wants to test their mettle against the likes of Irving should invite him to sit round a small table with them, give everyone a notepad and keep the tone civil. It's the grandstanding I object to. Tom C, I think you make a fair point about the need to rebut arguments (even though it is clearly a lot more fun to have a go at the Union). The proof of the pudding however would lie in whether or not any smaller student groups ever invited such controversial figures to address them in surroundings more conducive to debate. It’s bloody easy to rebut someone’s arguments when there are three hundred of you and one of them and the tone of the occasion lends itself to barracking. Anyone who really wants to test their mettle against the likes of Irving should invite him to sit round a small table with them, give everyone a notepad and keep the tone civil. It’s the grandstanding I object to.

]]> By: Tom C http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119260 Tom C Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:16:05 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119260 I think there's undoubtedly an element of attention seeking when a students union does this but it's a very useful intellectual exercise to be forced to justify opinions that are so rarely challenged in mainstream debate they can often be perceived as self evident; particularly so for undergraduate students, who are far less likely to have had their political beliefs challenged in this manner. It's a cliché to invoke Mill on a liberal blog but I think he puts the argument far more succinctly than I could hope to manage: "even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds. And not only this, but, fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but cumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience" I think there’s undoubtedly an element of attention seeking when a students union does this but it’s a very useful intellectual exercise to be forced to justify opinions that are so rarely challenged in mainstream debate they can often be perceived as self evident; particularly so for undergraduate students, who are far less likely to have had their political beliefs challenged in this manner.

It’s a cliché to invoke Mill on a liberal blog but I think he puts the argument far more succinctly than I could hope to manage:

“even if the received opinion be not only true, but the whole truth; unless it is suffered to be, and actually is, vigorously and earnestly contested, it will, by most of those who receive it, be held in the manner of a prejudice, with little comprehension or feeling of its rational grounds. And not only this, but, fourthly, the meaning of the doctrine itself will be in danger of being lost, or enfeebled, and deprived of its vital effect on the character and conduct: the dogma becoming a mere formal profession, inefficacious for good, but cumbering the ground, and preventing the growth of any real and heartfelt conviction, from reason or personal experience”

]]> By: Alix http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119256 Alix Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:06:47 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119256 I dance a jig of glee on your last para. I was successively at Oxford and then Cambridge at two points in the quinquennial cycle, and accordingly can confirm that it is what is technically known as "a bunch of repetitive toss", and occurs only so that another generation of limp-chinned egotists can wet themselves in a cause other than tuition fees. David Irving probably has it in his diary. I dance a jig of glee on your last para. I was successively at Oxford and then Cambridge at two points in the quinquennial cycle, and accordingly can confirm that it is what is technically known as “a bunch of repetitive toss”, and occurs only so that another generation of limp-chinned egotists can wet themselves in a cause other than tuition fees. David Irving probably has it in his diary.

]]> By: Linda Jack http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119232 Linda Jack Fri, 23 Nov 2007 21:40:05 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119232 As someone who has taken a lot of flak as a Branch Secretary and chair of a national committee of my TU, I would be horrified if they started chucking out the Lib Dems...........particularly as my view is that I would have been chucked out of any other party by now anyways! However, I do agree that organisations should be able to expel those who don't share or uphold their values, not to do so is the road to ruin and an invitation to their enemies to destroy them from within. Therefore, if any TUs do decide to throw out members out on the basis of their New Labour membership, so be it, it will be their just desserts! As someone who has taken a lot of flak as a Branch Secretary and chair of a national committee of my TU, I would be horrified if they started chucking out the Lib Dems………..particularly as my view is that I would have been chucked out of any other party by now anyways! However, I do agree that organisations should be able to expel those who don’t share or uphold their values, not to do so is the road to ruin and an invitation to their enemies to destroy them from within. Therefore, if any TUs do decide to throw out members out on the basis of their New Labour membership, so be it, it will be their just desserts!

]]> By: Julian H http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119184 Julian H Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:23:20 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119184 Hear hear. Hear hear.

]]> By: James Graham http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119138 James Graham Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:33:34 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119138 The Oxford and Cambridge Unions are not trade unions; they are speaking unions. Regarding TUs, they need to tread very carefully on this and it is an interesting debate. My bet is however that if TUs started to expel members of non-extremist parties that it would very quickly become their death knell. They already struggle to convince people of their relevance (which is a shame); such a blatant act of partisanship would signal their utter irrelevance in the eyes of most people. As self-destructive as the Trade Union movement is, I can't see it ever happening. Do I support the right of any private union, club, association or political party from policing its own membership though? Absolutely. The Oxford and Cambridge Unions are not trade unions; they are speaking unions.

Regarding TUs, they need to tread very carefully on this and it is an interesting debate. My bet is however that if TUs started to expel members of non-extremist parties that it would very quickly become their death knell. They already struggle to convince people of their relevance (which is a shame); such a blatant act of partisanship would signal their utter irrelevance in the eyes of most people. As self-destructive as the Trade Union movement is, I can’t see it ever happening.

Do I support the right of any private union, club, association or political party from policing its own membership though? Absolutely.

]]> By: Jo A http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119131 Jo A Fri, 23 Nov 2007 19:22:35 +0000 http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/23/oxbridge-twittery-and-freedom-of-speech/#comment-119131 A very interesting thought-provoking blog entry James - I'm not sure where I stand on proposals to effectively ban someone from being a member of a trade union on political party membership alone - this was after a case of a BNP member being in a union and causing all kinds of embarrassment. Apparently - speaking to someone I won't reveal - it will only be used as a last resort! Where does that road lead though James? ;@) A very interesting thought-provoking blog entry James - I’m not sure where I stand on proposals to effectively ban someone from being a member of a trade union on political party membership alone - this was after a case of a BNP member being in a union and causing all kinds of embarrassment.

Apparently - speaking to someone I won’t reveal - it will only be used as a last resort!

Where does that road lead though James? ;@)

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