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	<title>Comments on: Conspiring with lefties</title>
	<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/</link>
	<description>crass, boorish and more a bruiser than blogger</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Liberal Conspiracy: differential diagnosis &#171; THE PEOPLE&#8217;S REPUBLIC OF MORTIMER</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100720</link>
		<dc:creator>Liberal Conspiracy: differential diagnosis &#171; THE PEOPLE&#8217;S REPUBLIC OF MORTIMER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100720</guid>
		<description>[...] look briefly worried, then clutch my throat and bam! I fall to the floor as James Graham posts this, then I check my Facebook inbox and bam! my white cell count plummets as I&#8217;ve been cc&#8217;d [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] look briefly worried, then clutch my throat and bam! I fall to the floor as James Graham posts this, then I check my Facebook inbox and bam! my white cell count plummets as I&#8217;ve been cc&#8217;d [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Simon R</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100653</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100653</guid>
		<description>One last comment and then I think I'll leave this topic alone for a while.
James- thank you.  I have never been called an inverted snob before.  I will now attempt to squeeze those inside the NLC until the pips squeak!

Anthony- thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I don't think that there is any problem with quoting anyone, even scripture.  The test of good English as identified by Orwell, and endorsed by no less than me!, is whether it is understandable by those who it is aimed at, and whether it is precise.  You can quote from Pericles, Upton Sinclair or Trevor Kavanagh for all I care, as long as it conveys what you are trying to convey.  The problem with 'Gadarene' was not that it was obscure, but that it obscured.  The best answer to me so far was that the context meant that most people probably understood what he was saying anyway.  Fine.  But it seems that some people were left slightly puzzled and that his use of the word wasn't ideal.  If he said that political parties were like 'the pigs possessed by demons running off the end of the cliff in the Bible story' then he would be making the same reference but people would know what he was talking about.  That's the key difference between your quoting of Pericles, and RFK's recital of Aeschylus, and this.
Anyhow, you post something as an amusing aside and you get a broadside from James Graham, next thing you know...etc etc.
Anyway, now I am going to lead a Gadamene rush to never hear or use the term again....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One last comment and then I think I&#8217;ll leave this topic alone for a while.<br />
James- thank you.  I have never been called an inverted snob before.  I will now attempt to squeeze those inside the NLC until the pips squeak!</p>
<p>Anthony- thanks for your thoughtful comments.  I don&#8217;t think that there is any problem with quoting anyone, even scripture.  The test of good English as identified by Orwell, and endorsed by no less than me!, is whether it is understandable by those who it is aimed at, and whether it is precise.  You can quote from Pericles, Upton Sinclair or Trevor Kavanagh for all I care, as long as it conveys what you are trying to convey.  The problem with &#8216;Gadarene&#8217; was not that it was obscure, but that it obscured.  The best answer to me so far was that the context meant that most people probably understood what he was saying anyway.  Fine.  But it seems that some people were left slightly puzzled and that his use of the word wasn&#8217;t ideal.  If he said that political parties were like &#8216;the pigs possessed by demons running off the end of the cliff in the Bible story&#8217; then he would be making the same reference but people would know what he was talking about.  That&#8217;s the key difference between your quoting of Pericles, and RFK&#8217;s recital of Aeschylus, and this.<br />
Anyhow, you post something as an amusing aside and you get a broadside from James Graham, next thing you know&#8230;etc etc.<br />
Anyway, now I am going to lead a Gadamene rush to never hear or use the term again&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Geoffrey Payne</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100617</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoffrey Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100617</guid>
		<description>In the 1980s there was a libertarian left, which on top of believing in greater equality also believed in civil liberties, feminism, ecology, gay rights, and multiculturalism.
They have been made homeless by New Labour, and have been lost ever since. However these opinions also were widely held in the Liberal party back then, who hated Thatcherism and would have really preferred a left of centre coalition to a right of centre one.
Personally I thought that a left of centre coalition with Robin Cook at the forefront would be a very attractive option. Now he is dead, there seems little scope for that now. I do not relish a coalition with either party, but it is urgent that the Lib Dems get their policy through government somehow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the 1980s there was a libertarian left, which on top of believing in greater equality also believed in civil liberties, feminism, ecology, gay rights, and multiculturalism.<br />
They have been made homeless by New Labour, and have been lost ever since. However these opinions also were widely held in the Liberal party back then, who hated Thatcherism and would have really preferred a left of centre coalition to a right of centre one.<br />
Personally I thought that a left of centre coalition with Robin Cook at the forefront would be a very attractive option. Now he is dead, there seems little scope for that now. I do not relish a coalition with either party, but it is urgent that the Lib Dems get their policy through government somehow.</p>
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		<title>By: Antony Hook</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100597</link>
		<dc:creator>Antony Hook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100597</guid>
		<description>At Conference in the Governance debate I quoted Pericles, which seemed to go down quite well from where I was standing (at the podium).

Simon- it doesn't matter if you use the odd term that isn't understood by everyone.  It's better than dumbing down to the lowest common denominator, which people see as patronising.  People will respect the speaker as educated more than they will be object to him.    

I must say, having seen both candidates speak about 3 times in the last few weeks I noticed more "educated" words from Nick than from Chris.

I agree what you say about Senator-ese, by which I take it you mean those stock, often jargonistic, phrases politicians use to fill the void of their ignorance.  But I don't think either leadership candidate is guilty of that.

As for snobbery, a leadership race between John Cleese, Ronnie Barker, and Ronnie Corbett would be quite entertaining.  If that needs explaining there is no hope at all...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At Conference in the Governance debate I quoted Pericles, which seemed to go down quite well from where I was standing (at the podium).</p>
<p>Simon- it doesn&#8217;t matter if you use the odd term that isn&#8217;t understood by everyone.  It&#8217;s better than dumbing down to the lowest common denominator, which people see as patronising.  People will respect the speaker as educated more than they will be object to him.    </p>
<p>I must say, having seen both candidates speak about 3 times in the last few weeks I noticed more &#8220;educated&#8221; words from Nick than from Chris.</p>
<p>I agree what you say about Senator-ese, by which I take it you mean those stock, often jargonistic, phrases politicians use to fill the void of their ignorance.  But I don&#8217;t think either leadership candidate is guilty of that.</p>
<p>As for snobbery, a leadership race between John Cleese, Ronnie Barker, and Ronnie Corbett would be quite entertaining.  If that needs explaining there is no hope at all&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100533</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:33:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100533</guid>
		<description>I think you misunderstood (or are choosing to misunderstand) my public schoolboy jibe.  It isn't your critics who are guilty of inverted snobbery, it's you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you misunderstood (or are choosing to misunderstand) my public schoolboy jibe.  It isn&#8217;t your critics who are guilty of inverted snobbery, it&#8217;s you.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon R</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100529</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100529</guid>
		<description>RFK didn't just reference the poem and assumed that everyone would know what he meant, he read it out.  Indeed that speech is one of my favourites of all-time- the video is on YouTube by the way and is well worth watching.

And I have not spent 'hours' obsessing over Huhne's obscure use of language.  If anything, I found it pretty amusing actually, but my first reaction was 'What??!' and I imagine that many people felt the same way.  Apparently you are 'in despair', so perhaps you are the one obsessing too much?

As for 'hoisting by your own petard', this is fine, but is hardly best practice anyway.  If you won't take my communications skills as worth anything, perhaps you'll take one of the finest writers in English's?  George Orwell criticised journalists' lazy use of cliche that no one understands and uses it as an example of something to avoid:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

One of my classes at grad school was taught by one of the communications directors who worked for Hillary in the White House, and her pet obsession was 'Senator-ese' and the way that it alienates people from the political process.  I am sure she would have had a hernia if Joe Biden started talking about a 'Gadarene rush to neo-endogenous growth theory'!

But then Orwell was a 'public schoolboy' so I guess we can dismiss him with the ad hominem inverted snobbery card!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RFK didn&#8217;t just reference the poem and assumed that everyone would know what he meant, he read it out.  Indeed that speech is one of my favourites of all-time- the video is on YouTube by the way and is well worth watching.</p>
<p>And I have not spent &#8216;hours&#8217; obsessing over Huhne&#8217;s obscure use of language.  If anything, I found it pretty amusing actually, but my first reaction was &#8216;What??!&#8217; and I imagine that many people felt the same way.  Apparently you are &#8216;in despair&#8217;, so perhaps you are the one obsessing too much?</p>
<p>As for &#8216;hoisting by your own petard&#8217;, this is fine, but is hardly best practice anyway.  If you won&#8217;t take my communications skills as worth anything, perhaps you&#8217;ll take one of the finest writers in English&#8217;s?  George Orwell criticised journalists&#8217; lazy use of cliche that no one understands and uses it as an example of something to avoid:<br />
<a href="http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm</a></p>
<p>One of my classes at grad school was taught by one of the communications directors who worked for Hillary in the White House, and her pet obsession was &#8216;Senator-ese&#8217; and the way that it alienates people from the political process.  I am sure she would have had a hernia if Joe Biden started talking about a &#8216;Gadarene rush to neo-endogenous growth theory&#8217;!</p>
<p>But then Orwell was a &#8216;public schoolboy&#8217; so I guess we can dismiss him with the ad hominem inverted snobbery card!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Tod</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100522</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Tod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100522</guid>
		<description>Re Gadarene...  

Blimey.  Whatever next?  A liberal politician referencing Aeschylus?

&lt;a href="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rfkonmlkdeath.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rfkonmlkdeath.html&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Gadarene&#8230;  </p>
<p>Blimey.  Whatever next?  A liberal politician referencing Aeschylus?</p>
<p><a href="http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rfkonmlkdeath.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/rfkonmlkdeath.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100505</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100505</guid>
		<description>Indeed, Sam, and Huhne's context is clear.  It took Chris Huhne less than a second to utter the word, yet people like Simon have now been obsessing about it for hours - assuming that the &lt;em&gt;hoi polloi&lt;/em&gt; will be avidly reading transcripts of political programmes in the same way he does.  Which of the two do you think has the worse understanding of basic human communication?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Sam, and Huhne&#8217;s context is clear.  It took Chris Huhne less than a second to utter the word, yet people like Simon have now been obsessing about it for hours - assuming that the <em>hoi polloi</em> will be avidly reading transcripts of political programmes in the same way he does.  Which of the two do you think has the worse understanding of basic human communication?</p>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100502</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100502</guid>
		<description>As far as this 'Gadarene' thing is concerned - surely it doesn't matterwhether the viewere understands the reference to the Gadarene, but whether they undertsood the point Huhne was making.

Many people haven't the first clue about what a petard actually is, but they understand what being hoist on your own one means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as this &#8216;Gadarene&#8217; thing is concerned - surely it doesn&#8217;t matterwhether the viewere understands the reference to the Gadarene, but whether they undertsood the point Huhne was making.</p>
<p>Many people haven&#8217;t the first clue about what a petard actually is, but they understand what being hoist on your own one means.</p>
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		<title>By: Tristan Mills</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100496</link>
		<dc:creator>Tristan Mills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/11/05/conspiring-with-lefties/#comment-100496</guid>
		<description>Stumbling and Mumbling is involved and he's definitely a liberal in my book.

This is just the continuation of the perversion of the meaning of liberal though, its coming to mean moderate and wanting to be nice to homosexuals and ethnic minorities.

BTW I do consider myself to be broadly on the left (stop laughing) - most of my thinking started from concern for the poor and equality of opportunity and a sense of injustice in the world. I just see the state as the main enemy not business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stumbling and Mumbling is involved and he&#8217;s definitely a liberal in my book.</p>
<p>This is just the continuation of the perversion of the meaning of liberal though, its coming to mean moderate and wanting to be nice to homosexuals and ethnic minorities.</p>
<p>BTW I do consider myself to be broadly on the left (stop laughing) - most of my thinking started from concern for the poor and equality of opportunity and a sense of injustice in the world. I just see the state as the main enemy not business.</p>
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