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	<title>Comments on: Doughty news values (UPDATED)</title>
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	<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/</link>
	<description>"crass, boorish and more a bruiser than blogger" - Alex Wilcock</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57634</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 12:34:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57634</guid>
		<description>Peter: I'm happy for 18DS to have whatever values it wants.  I'm merely questioning the notion that it is challenging the establishment by adopting establishment news values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter: I&#8217;m happy for 18DS to have whatever values it wants.  I&#8217;m merely questioning the notion that it is challenging the establishment by adopting establishment news values.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter McGrath</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57626</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter McGrath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 12:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57626</guid>
		<description>One of the problems here is that the science around climate is so complex that only the smartest mathematicians and physicists understand many of the processes.  The rest of us have to take the application of the science on trust, and all of us a window from which to observe the weather, a faulty memory on which to draw, partially informed opinions and a gob with which to express them.  We can only have informed opinions, Iain Dale and Nigel Lawson 

And we generalise: one commentator objected that MMGW must be bollocks because it rained a lot on the Isle of Wight last week.  Climate models cannot be used to predict local conditions, but that is short sentence precising a long, complex argument, easily countered by the argument that scientists are all 'in on it.'  There is a familiarity to this tactic by the right which people active in other areas will recognise: use minority dissenting experts to support your position, quote mine from mainstream experts and exaggerate, resort argument from incredulity, posit a conspiracy.   How 18 Doughty Street behaves is up to it: whether its audience believes a former paper editor with no scientific training is up to them.  At a lecture last week a scientist said that the climate was now changing at the fastest rate in 40 million years.   I know who I believe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the problems here is that the science around climate is so complex that only the smartest mathematicians and physicists understand many of the processes.  The rest of us have to take the application of the science on trust, and all of us a window from which to observe the weather, a faulty memory on which to draw, partially informed opinions and a gob with which to express them.  We can only have informed opinions, Iain Dale and Nigel Lawson </p>
<p>And we generalise: one commentator objected that MMGW must be bollocks because it rained a lot on the Isle of Wight last week.  Climate models cannot be used to predict local conditions, but that is short sentence precising a long, complex argument, easily countered by the argument that scientists are all &#8216;in on it.&#8217;  There is a familiarity to this tactic by the right which people active in other areas will recognise: use minority dissenting experts to support your position, quote mine from mainstream experts and exaggerate, resort argument from incredulity, posit a conspiracy.   How 18 Doughty Street behaves is up to it: whether its audience believes a former paper editor with no scientific training is up to them.  At a lecture last week a scientist said that the climate was now changing at the fastest rate in 40 million years.   I know who I believe.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57617</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 11:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57617</guid>
		<description>But the right is as guilty of moral relativism.  Rightwing foreign policy is all about 'our bastards' and much rightwing thought is based on the notion that each culture is/should be a hermetically sealed silo.  The right is always keen to emphasise difference rather than common cause.  No-one would accuse Iain Dale of being a lefty, but here he is equating the views of a journalist on the environment with the views of the vast majority of the scientific community.  Relativistic or what?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But the right is as guilty of moral relativism.  Rightwing foreign policy is all about &#8216;our bastards&#8217; and much rightwing thought is based on the notion that each culture is/should be a hermetically sealed silo.  The right is always keen to emphasise difference rather than common cause.  No-one would accuse Iain Dale of being a lefty, but here he is equating the views of a journalist on the environment with the views of the vast majority of the scientific community.  Relativistic or what?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Papworth</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57615</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Papworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 11:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57615</guid>
		<description>James,

I'm not sure that writing for a write wing paper precludes you from being left wing. There's plenty of old Trots on the Times. 

As for moral relativism, it has been an ever more powerful force in leftwing thinking. Many left wing academics have claimed that brutal practices such as female genital mutilation are cultural norms that neo-colonialist Westerners have no business criticising. 

Hell, Noam Chomsky defended Pol Pot!!

You are right that this is not "liberal", but it is very typical of "the left".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that writing for a write wing paper precludes you from being left wing. There&#8217;s plenty of old Trots on the Times. </p>
<p>As for moral relativism, it has been an ever more powerful force in leftwing thinking. Many left wing academics have claimed that brutal practices such as female genital mutilation are cultural norms that neo-colonialist Westerners have no business criticising. </p>
<p>Hell, Noam Chomsky defended Pol Pot!!</p>
<p>You are right that this is not &#8220;liberal&#8221;, but it is very typical of &#8220;the left&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: James Graham</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57571</link>
		<dc:creator>James Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 09:21:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57571</guid>
		<description>Laurence: yes, it was fun.  Having seen the finished package, with us on for 30 seconds and Andrew Neill lobbing abuse at Rennard, I happen to think the public would have been better served by just watching our whole discussion.

Colin: I don't accept that the BBC bias is 'left and liberal'.  You give the game away by equating the two (suggesting you don't know what either of them actually are).  It is certainly middle class and patrician, but you only have to glance at the number of BBC journalists who write for rightwing papers to realise that the bias isn't leftwing.

In terms of Graham Brady, I'm reading his resignation letter (published in the &lt;a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=458517&#038;in_page_id=1770" rel="nofollow"&gt;Daily Mail&lt;/a&gt;) and he states: &lt;em&gt;"Like all Members of Parliament who have grammar schools in their constituencies, I must now help to provide the evidence that those schools need to defend themselves. That is why I have felt duty bound to continue my practice of obtaining and publishing facts which demonstrate that selective local education authorities perform better than comprehensive ones."&lt;/em&gt;  I could go on, but it is quite transparent that he resigned over disagreement with Cameron on Grammar Schools.  How has the BBC distorted this fact?

Conversely, yesterday I was listening to Caroline Quinn on the Today Programme suggesting to Peter Tatchell that gay rights were 'Western values' and that he should expect to get beaten up defending them if he will insist on protesting in Russia.  How is suggesting that universal human rights such as the right to protest and free assembly, let alone sticking up for gay rights leftwing, or liberal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laurence: yes, it was fun.  Having seen the finished package, with us on for 30 seconds and Andrew Neill lobbing abuse at Rennard, I happen to think the public would have been better served by just watching our whole discussion.</p>
<p>Colin: I don&#8217;t accept that the BBC bias is &#8216;left and liberal&#8217;.  You give the game away by equating the two (suggesting you don&#8217;t know what either of them actually are).  It is certainly middle class and patrician, but you only have to glance at the number of BBC journalists who write for rightwing papers to realise that the bias isn&#8217;t leftwing.</p>
<p>In terms of Graham Brady, I&#8217;m reading his resignation letter (published in the <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=458517&#038;in_page_id=1770" rel="nofollow">Daily Mail</a>) and he states: <em>&#8220;Like all Members of Parliament who have grammar schools in their constituencies, I must now help to provide the evidence that those schools need to defend themselves. That is why I have felt duty bound to continue my practice of obtaining and publishing facts which demonstrate that selective local education authorities perform better than comprehensive ones.&#8221;</em>  I could go on, but it is quite transparent that he resigned over disagreement with Cameron on Grammar Schools.  How has the BBC distorted this fact?</p>
<p>Conversely, yesterday I was listening to Caroline Quinn on the Today Programme suggesting to Peter Tatchell that gay rights were &#8216;Western values&#8217; and that he should expect to get beaten up defending them if he will insist on protesting in Russia.  How is suggesting that universal human rights such as the right to protest and free assembly, let alone sticking up for gay rights leftwing, or liberal?</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Papworth</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57476</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Papworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 23:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57476</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure that 18DS necessarily needs to have an agenda. I'd rather it had a much lighter editorial touch, with individual programme makers free to make a programme as balanced or as polemical as they see fit. 

Of course, 18DS is a Tory propaganda station, so perhaps what I really want is a genuine politicos (internet) TV channel that does the above.

I agree with your point about Greenpeace. (All of them, but especially...) I used to think that one should encourage widely differing opinions to share a platform, but I've been to a few debates over the last couple of years that were simply pointless, becuase experts were arguing about such fundamentals of the evidence that the lay audiance was left with little option but to stick to their pre-conceptions. 

Perhaps the solution is to abandon the air of neutrality and adopt the Newspaper system: be openly ideological and allow the viewers to choose. This would necessitate privatising or dismantling the BBC, of course, as it could hardly be both biased and publically owned. But some sacrifices are worth making!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that 18DS necessarily needs to have an agenda. I&#8217;d rather it had a much lighter editorial touch, with individual programme makers free to make a programme as balanced or as polemical as they see fit. </p>
<p>Of course, 18DS is a Tory propaganda station, so perhaps what I really want is a genuine politicos (internet) TV channel that does the above.</p>
<p>I agree with your point about Greenpeace. (All of them, but especially&#8230;) I used to think that one should encourage widely differing opinions to share a platform, but I&#8217;ve been to a few debates over the last couple of years that were simply pointless, becuase experts were arguing about such fundamentals of the evidence that the lay audiance was left with little option but to stick to their pre-conceptions. </p>
<p>Perhaps the solution is to abandon the air of neutrality and adopt the Newspaper system: be openly ideological and allow the viewers to choose. This would necessitate privatising or dismantling the BBC, of course, as it could hardly be both biased and publically owned. But some sacrifices are worth making!!</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Holland</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57467</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Holland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 21:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57467</guid>
		<description>BBC have a decidedly arrogant and left wing liberal bias, and is now propoging its message in a new style.
This is disinformation. I would like to believe that it is just incompetence or a lack of joined up thinking, but today I was made fully aware of this new war front.
If you had listened to the various news broadcasts on Radio 4 today you would have heard at least 4 different and wrong versions of why Brady resigned from the Conservative front bench. This was done in spite of him being interviewed on the Today programme and giving a very clear reason of why he had resigned. The last news I heard at about 8pm was that he was in "disagreement with Camerons policy on grammar schools" - possibly the worst distortion of the whole day.
Is it any wonder that no sane person trusts any of the main parties and especially Blair/Brown and Cameron?
Is it any wonder that the BBC is losing credibility in its task to being the nation's best ambulance chaser?
I say bring back Guy Fawkes (a successful one of course)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BBC have a decidedly arrogant and left wing liberal bias, and is now propoging its message in a new style.<br />
This is disinformation. I would like to believe that it is just incompetence or a lack of joined up thinking, but today I was made fully aware of this new war front.<br />
If you had listened to the various news broadcasts on Radio 4 today you would have heard at least 4 different and wrong versions of why Brady resigned from the Conservative front bench. This was done in spite of him being interviewed on the Today programme and giving a very clear reason of why he had resigned. The last news I heard at about 8pm was that he was in &#8220;disagreement with Camerons policy on grammar schools&#8221; - possibly the worst distortion of the whole day.<br />
Is it any wonder that no sane person trusts any of the main parties and especially Blair/Brown and Cameron?<br />
Is it any wonder that the BBC is losing credibility in its task to being the nation&#8217;s best ambulance chaser?<br />
I say bring back Guy Fawkes (a successful one of course)</p>
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		<title>By: Laurence Boyce</title>
		<link>http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57456</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurence Boyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 19:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/2007/05/30/doughty-news-values/#comment-57456</guid>
		<description>It was a laugh though, wasn’t it? And we had a vaguely intelligent conversation. And the overall portrayal was broadly in your favour I thought. I like Iain Dale a lot, but I don’t think he has much of a clue about science. Perhaps 18DS should employ you as their chief scientific advisor!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was a laugh though, wasn’t it? And we had a vaguely intelligent conversation. And the overall portrayal was broadly in your favour I thought. I like Iain Dale a lot, but I don’t think he has much of a clue about science. Perhaps 18DS should employ you as their chief scientific advisor!</p>
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